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PostPosted: 07 May 2015 11:20 
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Joined: 13 Aug 2011 12:33
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Country: ireland
As the title lads, doing the w/m 50/50 injection set up on 1.3 turbo fto.

Ive loads of info gathered and all, parts bought etc, but one important question remains,

Place the injector pre turbo or after the cooler?

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PostPosted: 07 May 2015 18:57 
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Joined: 04 Jul 2005 13:25
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Location: Lower Hutt
Country: NZ
You don't need or want methanol.
Water injection is water.

If you inject it before the turbo, some of it will condense and sit in a puddle in the bottom of the intercooler where it will slowly evaporate when you're at part throttle, it'll screw up your tuning. Particularly if you're injecting methanol too.

Port injection is best of course, one for each cylinder.

Being a mivec (aftermarket computer?), it's a speed density computer.
The extra cooling effect will lean out / mess up the AFR a bit (if it's a AFM based computer it doesn't affect AFR).......that's why people use methanol.
Methanol is to be avoided though as it's horrible stuff,makes you go blind and stupid....... if you're going to add anything, use ethanol, as in methylated spirit.

Steve

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6G72 mivec Twin TDO5 20Gs up and running.
6G72 mivec bored and stroked to 3.4 litres...Frankenmitsi build
6G74 mivec bored and stroked to 3.9 litres....Frankenmitsi build.
6G75 under construction....4.2 litres bored and stroked.Another Frankenmitsi.


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PostPosted: 07 May 2015 22:08 
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Joined: 13 Aug 2011 12:33
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Country: ireland
Thanks for reply Steve.

Its 4g13 12v running plastic case reflashable ecu also its speed desity.

I would like to keep the system as simple as possible, less complexity less trouble as i want the tune it to run with water/alcohol even just before the boost, and it will be water injection tuned permanently.

Im boosting 0.6 bar and im not rising the boost, want to advance the timing instead.

Would you recomend using only water or mix it with alcohol?

What other types of alcohol, im not sure what else i can get here :( Denaturated alcohol?

So basically its better after the intercooler?

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PostPosted: 08 May 2015 01:53 
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Joined: 04 Jul 2005 13:25
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Location: Lower Hutt
Country: NZ
Denatured alcohol is methylated spirit.
It's vodka which has been tampered with so you can't drink it?

They put a purple dye in it and other additives so if you try to drink it, you'll bring it back up again.
It's ethanol with a small % of methanol.

OK so 4G13?
I've had a factory 4G15......speed density.
Can it handle boost?

Steve

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6G72 mivec Twin TDO5 20Gs up and running.
6G72 mivec bored and stroked to 3.4 litres...Frankenmitsi build
6G74 mivec bored and stroked to 3.9 litres....Frankenmitsi build.
6G75 under construction....4.2 litres bored and stroked.Another Frankenmitsi.


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PostPosted: 09 May 2015 02:17 
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Joined: 13 Aug 2011 12:33
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Country: ireland
Oh so denaturated alcohol will be fine? As long as i wont desire to drink it haha.

If you asking about can the 4g13 engine handle the boost, yes it can, ive all stock on it ie head gasket, internals etc, timing however is retarded and im running quite conservative afr till i can fine tune it.

Using mivec 275cpm injectors, 4g93 intercooler, one of legnum's vr4 td03 turbo, 2" down pipe with 2.5" cat and 2.5" cat back. Also mivec 1.6 gearbox.

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Or if its the speed density the answer is also yes but i had to build resistor pack to lower the voltage so 1bar is now round 3v ( i can get exact figures if you would like, just cant remember) while 1.6bar is about 4v, also ive rescaled the efficiency table (load vs revs) to match the new voltage input (can send you the edited rom if you need it for anything?)

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PostPosted: 09 May 2015 13:16 
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Joined: 04 Jul 2005 13:25
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Location: Lower Hutt
Country: NZ
You're using a 2 bar map sensor now, not the 1 bar?
Using the 1 bar map sensor, you scale it with a resistor.........at 1 bar the output might be close to 5v but the ECU sees 3v?
It can't output more than 5v and can't see boost.
But a 2 bar map sensor will give a 0 to 5v output going from full vacuum to 1 bar boost.
But it still messes up the AFR and gives far too much timing advance at half scale.
Increasing the injector size makes it run far too rich, so you need to trick the ECU to leaning it out.The resistor mod to the MAP sensor, that should do it? maybe? but with a 1 bar map sensor it still won't see boost so won't get close to 100 % IDC?

I think if I was doing it, I'd keep the ECU and injectors stock so it works properly without boost.......than add an auxiliary injector controller and extra injectors for boost.
You could run that from a separate fuel system, maybe even with water and alcohol in it ?
With sufficient quantity that's your extra fuel. You could even control it with a fuel only megasquirt?

Off boost you'd want it to drive like a proper car?
It's not going to do that with bigger injectors and resistor MAP sensor mod.

Steve

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6G72 mivec Twin TDO5 20Gs up and running.
6G72 mivec bored and stroked to 3.4 litres...Frankenmitsi build
6G74 mivec bored and stroked to 3.9 litres....Frankenmitsi build.
6G75 under construction....4.2 litres bored and stroked.Another Frankenmitsi.


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PostPosted: 09 May 2015 22:45 
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Joined: 13 Aug 2011 12:33
Posts: 379
Country: ireland
Its does drive fine Steve :)

Either on boost or not, after changes in efficiency table everything is fine.

Starts fine, idleing perfect, driving realy well.

1bar was reading as just over 4v so i presume its 2bar map on 4g13 from the factory?

Reason i have alter the voltage signal from map is that the ecu was never using the lower columns in efficiency tables so ive moved everything lover gaining two at the high load, without customizing the rom and deffinition file as im not that far in to mapping stock case yet. Also my definition file has an error somewhere that im not able to change the injector size.
Its all about spending your time at it.

Ive spend a few weeks driving it about dataloging and changing the data as i go to get me where i am now.
Ecu see boost trough the stock map sensor no problem and even before voltage change it was still able to see it and measure it if ya get me, as for example evo map sensor (same sensor as eclipse and many more afairc) only detect boost cant measure it, i tryed to use it before i discover the stock one can do what i want :)

Mivec injectors are very good size for 1.3 turbo as on full boost they do 70% duty time at 0.6 bar. Ive still fine tune it as i mention as the afr leans out tiny bit at 0.6 but i had to leave the it alone for the past 3 weeks as i was busy with work here.

Stock ecu is doing the job perfectly, i couldnt be bothered to use any piggy back for controlling the engine, cant see a point to be honest.

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